So cheats do prosper.....

[Archie's penalty]

I think they're that good. Nowhere near as good as they were 2 years ago. Without Torres they are much worse. Well done to them but I don't think they're as good as some of the classic sides, like Brazil 1970, Holland or Germany in 74 or even the exciting French side of Platini and Giress. Still they won, congrats.

[Ian Royal]

nice to see this descended straight into the Spanish are great, no they aren't. Rather than actually keep to the point that refereeing currently rewards cheating and penalises honest play when fouled on the whole.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Yeah, that's what I meant. It's absolutely the case that if you question the claims for Spain being a fantastic team then you must be by default advocating the English kick-and-hoof style.



The Spanish style is of course very easy on the eye and effective enough to make them the best team in the world, but in my opinion if they had more pace they'd be a lot more devastating.

well yes, if any team had more of any particular positive attribute they'd be better. That goes without saying. The problem comes from your implication that you can't be a great side without pace and height. That's blatantly nonsense. I'm not saying you advocate kick and rush, but Britain is about the only place where pace is regarded as some kind of magic bullet that makes team devastating. And hardly anywhere else puts such an emphasis on wide players getting behind defenders, mainly because elsewhere player grow up learning how to pass through a defence, rather than being forced around it.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

nice to see this descended straight into the Spanish are great, no they aren't. Rather than actually keep to the point that refereeing currently rewards cheating and penalises honest play when fouled on the whole.

Is there actually any argument about that point? What's to discuss?

[Baines]

I think they're that good. Nowhere near as good as they were 2 years ago. Without Torres they are much worse. Well done to them but I don't think they're as good as some of the classic sides, like Brazil 1970, Holland or Germany in 74 or even the exciting French side of Platini and Giress. Still they won, congrats.

How many games played by the Brazilian/Dutch/West German sides of the 70s, or the French side of the 80s have you seen? If your views are primarily based on highlights reels or selected excellent games, it's a little hard to judge. This Spanish side have been dominant for a long time. In these finals, with the exception of the Swiss game and the first 20 mins vs Chile, they've been untroubled. Comparisons are odious, but one would have to guess that, at the very least, they'd have given any of those "classic sides" a very close run for their money.

[PEARCEY]

Fact is, this Spain team is no better than past Spanish teams that have got to the Q-Fs of major tournaments. They lack the pace and height to be a truly great team, but are fortunate to be around during an unprecedentedly mediocre period for the major national teams. They are the best around at the moment, but that's not saying much and they did have to resort to some dirty play themselves last night because they are simply not good enough to overcome an average Dutch team by footballing skill alone.

Rubbish !

LOL at the idea that because they don't have lots of tall players they aren't actually very good !! Just LOL !!!!

I'd guess being European and World Champions means absolutley nothing. To have twice come through in major competitions is not worth even crediting them with being a pretty decent team ! They play good football, on the ground (why would they need a few 6' bruisers ?) and all 10 outfield players can play.

And LOL that they inly beat Holland by playing dirty !!

Just LOL generally really.....

Agreed. What the fcuk has height got to do with whether they are a great side or not.

[zummerset]

Pearcey in denial over size issue. Best not ask you missus for a second opinion

[Archie's penalty]

I think they're that good. Nowhere near as good as they were 2 years ago. Without Torres they are much worse. Well done to them but I don't think they're as good as some of the classic sides, like Brazil 1970, Holland or Germany in 74 or even the exciting French side of Platini and Giress. Still they won, congrats.

How many games played by the Brazilian/Dutch/West German sides of the 70s, or the French side of the 80s have you seen? If your views are primarily based on highlights reels or selected excellent games, it's a little hard to judge. This Spanish side have been dominant for a long time. In these finals, with the exception of the Swiss game and the first 20 mins vs Chile, they've been untroubled. Comparisons are odious, but one would have to guess that, at the very least, they'd have given any of those "classic sides" a very close run for their money.

Good comeback. Not much to add really, haven't seen many full games but can't you say the highlights give a good picture of a game? Certainly Brazil 1970 and the Platini French team played very exciting football. It's very possible this is a great Spanish side, hindsight is a wonderful thing, we'll just have to see how history sees them.

I would have to say though they weren't as impressive in this tournament as they were two years ago. Then I watched all the games and they tore teams apart, this time it has been more methodical (which in a way is just as impressive).

If you compare the French of 1998/2000 the second French team was much more exciting, if the Spanish go on to win in two years then I really will have to hand it to them. Hopefully the Germans will be excellent then, would love to see another Spanish-German encounter when the Germans have a bit more nous and wit to add to their young enthusiasm...

[Baines]

In appreciating the performances of football teams, I don't think that hindsight, or a view of history, helps. We tend to primarily remember the good bits (so, no, highlights don't give a good picture of a game). We've now seen this Spain side over two tournaments. In this tournament they've defeated teams which have attacked them, Chile and Germany, teams which have defended against them, Paraguay and Portugal, and teams which have attempted to kick them off the park (whilst retaining an attacking ability), Holland.

My own view is that they probably are a great side - they are able to control a game better than any national side I have seen - but that they often lack a little something to stir the blood.

[PEARCEY]

Pearcey in denial over size issue. Best not ask you missus for a second opinion

But wait a minute. I should be

[Royal Rother]

All Spain really lacked was a fit and firing Torres.

It has been sad watching him during his appearances in this WC, particularly so last night. A great talent, he looked a broken young man during his 10 minutes on the pitch.

It's rather amazing to consider that out of all the English Premier League players who represented their countries during the World Cup the best of the lot might have been Kevin Prince Boateng and John Mensah.

[Archie's penalty]

Yes they missed Torres hugely. Maybe that was the difference between two years ago and now. Shame really.

[John Madejski's Wallet]

Yes they missed Torres hugely. Maybe that was the difference between two years ago and now. Shame really.

^^^ my thoughts exactly.

Spain 2 years ago were awesome. This tourney I found them highly disappointing.

Lost to Swiss, struggled against Honduras, really struggled past Chile, needed a lot of luck to get past Paraguay, Couldn't score in open play against Germany & needed Dutch down to 10 men to score very late.

I really think the difference was no Torres.

Plus for all the spanking over Iniesta & Xavi, I don't think they did much to contribute to attacking play thast much. Fabregas however is far more attacking minded

I don't think it was Iniesta or Xavi that contributed the most to WC win, i'd put it solely down the 3 players.... an on fire Villa and the best centre back partnership on the planet (club or country)

[Ian Royal]

That's why I'm not impressed with the way they play. A Great team doesn't struggle to break down sides and scrape 1 goal wins. It destroys other very good sides.

They basically won by kocking the ball around pointlessly for 60+ minutes to tire teams out then hoping there'd be a defensive lapse.

It's like combining the passing and moving skill of Wenger's Arsenal with the 1-0 grind it out mentality of Arsenal of old. Pretty, but when it comes down to it: Dull. Even if in a fascinating way.

[Kitsondinho]

In 2008 Spain were awesome.......this year they were boring....I'm sorry but the movement of the ball was not as fluent as two years ago. They did not look as dangerous and the Netherlands could have beaten them (if Robben had put his chance away). I'm not saying Spain are crap or anything silly like that, but they are not the team they were two years ago. The same thing happened to France in Euro 2000. They were good, but not as good as in 1998. I agree with everyone else that Torres is main reason Spain looked less potent at this World Cup. Him fully fit, with Villa out wide is lethal.....Villa is not a lone front man in the way Torres is. Villa didn't score in the last two games, when Torres didn't start. You could argue that was because Torres came on for Villa in both games, but I couldn't comment!!

[bigmike]

A great team would have won at least one of their games in this tournament by more than 1 goal that was scored in the latter stages of the game.

This is grade A rubbish. It doesn't matter how many goals you win by, because you don't win by the volume of goals, you just need to score one more than your opponent; dem de rulez.

Ok so you understand that you have to score more than your opponent to win well done.

Are you trying to tell me that this spanish team are a Great team???? Are you trying to compare this sad excuse for a football team with the great Brazilian Argentine German Italian and even French teams of the past? Wake up... The fact of the matter is yes the Spanish won the world cup but to be honest they didnt play exciting or even good football. They played effective football. They seem to have played pass around at the back for 80 mins bore the opposition to sleep and then hit them once football.

This has to go down in my mind as the worst world cup ever.

[Royal Rother]

...this sad excuse for a football team....

This is crazy stuff.

Did you struggle to keep up in Pamplona or something?

[Mr Angry]

Back to the original point of this thread......

..... IF Howard Webb was playing advantage, then he could have legitimately called play back and given Robben a free kick outside the area, and then booked Puyol (who would have then got a red). The fact he didn't suggests that he didn't see the incident as a foul, and had Robben gone down, Robben may well have got a yellow for simulation.

Basically, the whole premise of this thread is that Robben was fouled by Puyol; according to the only person whose opinion counts, Howard Webb, he wasn't.

Therefore, no, cheats DON'T prosper, otherwise Van Bommel would have been the one kissing the World Cup at the end of the game.

[PieEater]

Everyone is moaning about the physical approach of the Dutch, but how much of that is exaggerated by the feigned injuries of the spanish everytime they got tackled, and the pressure they put on Webb over every tackle, surrounding him by 4 players calling for bookings. It's a contact sport but with so much play acting players get scared to tackle.

Sure there were tackles worthy of bookings, but I thought Webb was being biased against the Dutch. DeJong sent off for basically touching Xavi's shoulder, another booking (I forget who) for touching Xavis leg with his hand when he rode the challenge. The scream from Iniesta as he was tackled, and failed to get a free kick (and then took out his revenge on van Bommel.)

This was one game where I was hoping it would go to penalties as I'm really struggling to see Spain as worthy winners.

[CMRoyal]

Yeah, that's what I meant. It's absolutely the case that if you question the claims for Spain being a fantastic team then you must be by default advocating the English kick-and-hoof style.



The Spanish style is of course very easy on the eye and effective enough to make them the best team in the world, but in my opinion if they had more pace they'd be a lot more devastating.

well yes, if any team had more of any particular positive attribute they'd be better. That goes without saying. The problem comes from your implication that you can't be a great side without pace and height. That's blatantly nonsense. I'm not saying you advocate kick and rush, but Britain is about the only place where pace is regarded as some kind of magic bullet that makes team devastating. And hardly anywhere else puts such an emphasis on wide players getting behind defenders, mainly because elsewhere player grow up learning how to pass through a defence, rather than being forced around it.

Now, that's blatant nonsense. It's not about the emphasis being on getting behind defenders, it's about having it as part of your armoury. Spain strive to use wide players as part of their game - that's why they ended up bringing in Pedro. And being able to play at pace is regarded as important everywhere in football - the faster you can play fluid, passing football the better you'll be, even if you only manage it in spurts at the crucial times. Hence Spain's lack of goals without a fit Torres this tournament.