FA Cup Changes

[Stranded]

What do you mean its not what i said? Its written right there?

People are anti football expansion at a world cup. FIFA expands world cups because more games = more money. FIFA presidents expand world cups because more federations getting a space at a world cup = more happy federations who vote for them.

The FA is proposing to reduce matches, which reduces football revenue. People are angry about it almost entirely because it raises less money.

If someone says to me, I'm pro replays because they are fun for fans, i agree. If someone says im pro replays because they increase revenue, i'm like, why should keeping replays because they make more money be the deciding factor?

Fewer replays = more giant killings, = more smaller teams in later rounds, but yes, a few less money spinning replays. But that shouldnt be the reason for keeping replays per ce.

Any league club that fields weakened teams in the cup (almost all now) but is still upset about this can also be safely ignored.

This is the bit where your argument falls down
They're not reducing the games so that EVERYONE gets less revenue. It's designed solely to INCREASE the revenue opportunities for the bigger clubs (more overseas friendlies, expanded CL, expanded World Club Championship, etc.) by reducing the games they now see as second class

I agree that the decision is being made because of what UEFA are imposing. However, without replays, more non league teams will get to rounds 3 4 and 5. That adds IMO excitement and intrigue to the competition. Hopefully more championship teams will get to QFs and SFs. There should be more upsets.

Well it though? Or will we just see ties that ended in 90 mins go the way of the higher placed team in Extra Time as their additional fitness and squad depth pays off?

[Greatwesternline]

Obviously that wasn't what you said and anyone who believes that expanding international tournaments is for the good of the smaller nations is probably just being deliberately obtuse

Quite. This whole thing is a lesson in obtuse from GWL. Shockingly.

And it remains total bullshit that binning replays makes it easier for small teams to progress.

Its the past few exchanges that make using this website so dull at times.

I literally write that expanding a world cup benefits smaller teams and yet more than one of you appears not to be able to read sentences on your screen.


And on the point about replays, of course its easier for a less good team to beat Manchester City over 90 minutes plus extra time than it is over 2 x 90. In the same way it is easier for a non league team to keep it to 0-0 for the first 10 minutes than it is over the whole 90. This is so obvious i find it hard to believe I'm having to type it out.

[Greatwesternline]

This is the bit where your argument falls down
They're not reducing the games so that EVERYONE gets less revenue. It's designed solely to INCREASE the revenue opportunities for the bigger clubs (more overseas friendlies, expanded CL, expanded World Club Championship, etc.) by reducing the games they now see as second class

I agree that the decision is being made because of what UEFA are imposing. However, without replays, more non league teams will get to rounds 3 4 and 5. That adds IMO excitement and intrigue to the competition. Hopefully more championship teams will get to QFs and SFs. There should be more upsets.

Well it though? Or will we just see ties that ended in 90 mins go the way of the higher placed team in Extra Time as their additional fitness and squad depth pays off?

The shorter amount of game time, the less time the better team has to over come the other.

Big teams can have an off day, as they often do, which leads to draws. To have back to back off days against the same team?

That's why we have league formats to establish the best team. The more times you play each other, the closer you will get to working out who is the best.

[Stranded]

I agree that the decision is being made because of what UEFA are imposing. However, without replays, more non league teams will get to rounds 3 4 and 5. That adds IMO excitement and intrigue to the competition. Hopefully more championship teams will get to QFs and SFs. There should be more upsets.

Well it though? Or will we just see ties that ended in 90 mins go the way of the higher placed team in Extra Time as their additional fitness and squad depth pays off?

The shorter amount of game time, the less time the better team has to over come the other.

Big teams can have an off day, as they often do, which leads to draws. To have back to back off days against the same team?

That's why we have league formats to establish the best team. The more times you play each other, the closer you will get to working out who is the best.

And yet it happens.

Just this season, West Ham were held 1-1 by Bristol City at home, then went and lost at Ashton gate.

Forest needed extra time to beat Blackpool in a replay after back to back 2-2 draws and then penalties to see off Bristol City after 0-0 and 1-1 draws.

Even in earlier rounds - League 2 Champions Stockport got a draw at Aldershot before losing the replay at home. Derby County drew at Crewe then lost at home in the replay.

[jd82]

That's why we have league formats to establish the best team. The more times you play each other, the closer you will get to working out who is the best.

and why do we have cup formats? Possibly so a small club can have their well earned day in the sun against a much bigger team

Anyway RIP the FA cup

[Greatwesternline]

That's why we have league formats to establish the best team. The more times you play each other, the closer you will get to working out who is the best.

and why do we have cup formats? Possibly so a small club can have their well earned day in the sun against a much bigger team

Anyway RIP the FA cup

Yes, because in a one off game, they stand more of a chance of winning.

One off.

[jd82]

That's why we have league formats to establish the best team. The more times you play each other, the closer you will get to working out who is the best.

and why do we have cup formats? Possibly so a small club can have their well earned day in the sun against a much bigger team

Anyway RIP the FA cup

Yes, because in a one off game, they stand more of a chance of winning.

One off.

How much of a better chance?

[Greatwesternline]

Well it though? Or will we just see ties that ended in 90 mins go the way of the higher placed team in Extra Time as their additional fitness and squad depth pays off?

The shorter amount of game time, the less time the better team has to over come the other.

Big teams can have an off day, as they often do, which leads to draws. To have back to back off days against the same team?

That's why we have league formats to establish the best team. The more times you play each other, the closer you will get to working out who is the best.

And yet it happens.

Just this season, West Ham were held 1-1 by Bristol City at home, then went and lost at Ashton gate.

Forest needed extra time to beat Blackpool in a replay after back to back 2-2 draws and then penalties to see off Bristol City after 0-0 and 1-1 draws.

Even in earlier rounds - League 2 Champions Stockport got a draw at Aldershot before losing the replay at home. Derby County drew at Crewe then lost at home in the replay.

It does happen. You know what happens more often? A team earns a draw, and then loses the replay. It is fairly obvious that over two games, the advantage of being the better team will come through more than over just one game.

People need to think less about the money the odd replay makes against a big PL team, and more about the magic of small teams actually getting through, at which point they will play bigger teams who made it through. Its possible teams that avoid replays and go through will make more money than from the replay because there is more money in later rounds and more games as a % get selected for TV.

But people just like complaining anyways.
Same people who dont mind RFC playing weakened sides in the cups year after year.

[jd82]

People need to think less about the money the odd replay makes against a big PL team, and more about the magic of small teams actually getting through, at which point they will play bigger teams who made it through. Its possible teams that avoid replays and go through will make more money than from the replay because there is more money in later rounds and more games as a % get selected for TV.

The people in question being the owners, managers etc of the small teams in question..

Why are they all up in arms if you are so sure that they are actually getting a better deal?

[jd82]

I think the thing being missed is that in a game that is a draw after 90 minute, the current system guarantees more revenue (and a day out, visit from a big club etc etc) for the smaller club (the replay)

Whereas the proposed system means they could well, and likely will, (due to fitter/deeper squads) come away with nothing.

It's really not that hard to work out why virtually every small club is against this.

[Greatwesternline]

People need to think less about the money the odd replay makes against a big PL team, and more about the magic of small teams actually getting through, at which point they will play bigger teams who made it through. Its possible teams that avoid replays and go through will make more money than from the replay because there is more money in later rounds and more games as a % get selected for TV.

The people in question being the owners, managers etc of the small teams in question..

Why are they all up in arms if you are so sure that they are actually getting a better deal?

I'm not sure they are getting a better financial deal, I'm saying they have a better chance of getting to the next round, (at which point they might make more money as it happens), but getting further in the competition is why they enter the bloody thing in the first place. It's supposed to be a knockout tournament for fun. Not an exercise in seeing how many games can we generate for the purposes of earning money to enrich a few club owners and its players.

Reading FC are up in arms about it. But field weakened teams. So they clearly dont care about replays or progression. They see the cup as an inconvenience. As i said, ignore people who are up in arms but whose actions dont match their words.

In any given year one or two small clubs will earn a big money spinning replay. And gain a large windfall. The majority of replays are between teams of similar ability just playing each other one more time. No windfalls there.

All the argument focusses on the hypothetical small team versus big PL team gets a replay big pay day scenario, but ignores the fact this happens to almost no one nearly all the time. What might happen is you sneak a few more upsets and find yourself as a league 1 team in a 5th round match which would be nice.

[Greatwesternline]

I think the thing being missed is that in a game that is a draw after 90 minute, the current system guarantees more revenue (and a day out, visit from a big club etc etc) for the smaller club (the replay)

Whereas the proposed system means they could well, and likely will, (due to fitter/deeper squads) come away with nothing.

It's really not that hard to work out why virtually every small club is against this.

Yeh i guess i take from it, you had the nice thing already: a game against a bigger team, either home or away,, and now at 90 minutes it ends, when you might have been on top because the other team misjudged your tactics, played to many weakened players, didnt know who your good ones were. If you held out for 30 more minutes or even win, you get your name in the next round, which is a huge reward.

Whereas with a replay you have to do it all over again, but now the better team has seen what you are all about and will most likely dispatch you.

Maybe im an old romantic who likes to dream of getting further in the competition, and getting a penalty shoot out versus a big PL team after 120 minutes seems the best way to achieve it. I dont care about the reward of a replay.

And waaaaay too much focus is on the money and not the sporting achievement. If i wanted to cheer on financial success i'd support the bloody FTSE 100

[jd82]

It comes down to what one thinks is best..

30 mins to try and win the game (you)

a guaranteed replay (the entire football pyramid below the top 6)

Yes, i'm being hyperbolic

[Snowflake Royal]

as a general point and not a dig at people here, I can't help but think that all areas of football have now become so analysed that even company bottom lines are now debating points for fans and the extra profit they might make becomes a thing to get enthused by.

I don't want replays to go because they can make for a great part of the experience of being a match going fan. Getting a replay away at a club in a division above, where you would not otherwise have a chance of playing, is brilliant! Also getting a 'big name' (in relationship to yourselves) club come down to your little ground for a game after earning a surprise draw away is amazing. This is all part of the romance of sport, of the excitement of going to games and getting to travel away to new grounds with your mates etc. Thats why I don't want replays to go.

but still, I am sure there will be a twitter account and a podcast somewhere which analyses the minute detail of the financial benefits of getting a replay and will make their decision based only on that

My friend asked me, what would i rather, Reading progress to later rounds of the cup, or a replay against a big team and all the money it brings. I without a second thought said progress as far as possible.

He was very surprised.

I really dont give an oxford about the finances. Why would i cheer that. This year i may have had a different point of view as it became existential, but in any other circumstance, why whould I cheer £££s rolling into the club versus getting to a further round? The whole point is to see how far you can get...

100% this.

Unless my club is about to go out of business for financial reasons, I don't care for the finances. it should all be about the experience of being a fan, going to see exciting games of football and in the Cup being able to hope/dream of getting a match against someone we usually wouldn't play. I hate all these conversations about the revenue it might bring in. Do people lose their minds and jump around wildly to football club revenue these days?!

When we got a draw up at Maine Road and so had a replay against Man City at Elm Park in 1993 I never once thought about the revenue involved. It was just a really exciting thing to look forward to.

Ignoring the finances is what leads tp the pressure to succeed no matter the cost and clubs being in regular crisis over their existance, regular administrations and points deductions and financial doping

[Snowflake Royal]

What do you mean its not what i said? Its written right there?

People are anti football expansion at a world cup. FIFA expands world cups because more games = more money. FIFA presidents expand world cups because more federations getting a space at a world cup = more happy federations who vote for them.

The FA is proposing to reduce matches, which reduces football revenue. People are angry about it almost entirely because it raises less money.

If someone says to me, I'm pro replays because they are fun for fans, i agree. If someone says im pro replays because they increase revenue, i'm like, why should keeping replays because they make more money be the deciding factor?

Fewer replays = more giant killings, = more smaller teams in later rounds, but yes, a few less money spinning replays. But that shouldnt be the reason for keeping replays per ce.

Any league club that fields weakened teams in the cup (almost all now) but is still upset about this can also be safely ignored.

This is the bit where your argument falls down
They're not reducing the games so that EVERYONE gets less revenue. It's designed solely to INCREASE the revenue opportunities for the bigger clubs (more overseas friendlies, expanded CL, expanded World Club Championship, etc.) by reducing the games they now see as second class

I agree that the decision is being made because of what UEFA are imposing. However, without replays, more non league teams will get to rounds 3 4 and 5. That adds IMO excitement and intrigue to the competition. Hopefully more championship teams will get to QFs and SFs. There should be more upsets.

You're whole argument is made based on flawed logic.

You assume extra time and penalties make smaller teams more likely to progress based on absolutely nothing.

[Snowflake Royal]

Obviously that wasn't what you said and anyone who believes that expanding international tournaments is for the good of the smaller nations is probably just being deliberately obtuse

Quite. This whole thing is a lesson in obtuse from GWL. Shockingly.

And it remains total bullshit that binning replays makes it easier for small teams to progress.

Its the past few exchanges that make using this website so dull at times.

I literally write that expanding a world cup benefits smaller teams and yet more than one of you appears not to be able to read sentences on your screen.


And on the point about replays, of course its easier for a less good team to beat Manchester City over 90 minutes plus extra time than it is over 2 x 90. In the same way it is easier for a non league team to keep it to 0-0 for the first 10 minutes than it is over the whole 90. This is so obvious i find it hard to believe I'm having to type it out.

No, its definity you.

[Winston Biscuit]

My friend asked me, what would i rather, Reading progress to later rounds of the cup, or a replay against a big team and all the money it brings. I without a second thought said progress as far as possible.

He was very surprised.

I really dont give an oxford about the finances. Why would i cheer that. This year i may have had a different point of view as it became existential, but in any other circumstance, why whould I cheer £££s rolling into the club versus getting to a further round? The whole point is to see how far you can get...

100% this.

Unless my club is about to go out of business for financial reasons, I don't care for the finances. it should all be about the experience of being a fan, going to see exciting games of football and in the Cup being able to hope/dream of getting a match against someone we usually wouldn't play. I hate all these conversations about the revenue it might bring in. Do people lose their minds and jump around wildly to football club revenue these days?!

When we got a draw up at Maine Road and so had a replay against Man City at Elm Park in 1993 I never once thought about the revenue involved. It was just a really exciting thing to look forward to.

Ignoring the finances is what leads tp the pressure to succeed no matter the cost and clubs being in regular crisis over their existance, regular administrations and points deductions and financial doping

I am talking about from a fans point of view

[Snowflake Royal]

100% this.

Unless my club is about to go out of business for financial reasons, I don't care for the finances. it should all be about the experience of being a fan, going to see exciting games of football and in the Cup being able to hope/dream of getting a match against someone we usually wouldn't play. I hate all these conversations about the revenue it might bring in. Do people lose their minds and jump around wildly to football club revenue these days?!

When we got a draw up at Maine Road and so had a replay against Man City at Elm Park in 1993 I never once thought about the revenue involved. It was just a really exciting thing to look forward to.

Ignoring the finances is what leads tp the pressure to succeed no matter the cost and clubs being in regular crisis over their existance, regular administrations and points deductions and financial doping

I am talking about from a fans point of view

So am I. There's constant fan pressure to spend more to compete and succeed regardless to cost or consequence.

We all saw it under Madejski. Wheres the money gone? He has to invest to succeed. He doesn't wamt to go up because it costs too much. He's selling our best players so he doesn't go up.

And under Dai. The people (still) happy with spending £7m on Aluko. Spunking £10m on Puscas and Joao immediately after coming out of an embargo. Ok with paying Moore a PL wage in the Championship. Just pay the extra £2m to get Oliviera

Constantly expecting 10 new signings.

[Winston Biscuit]

Ignoring the finances is what leads tp the pressure to succeed no matter the cost and clubs being in regular crisis over their existance, regular administrations and points deductions and financial doping

I am talking about from a fans point of view

So am I. There's constant fan pressure to spend more to compete and succeed regardless to cost or consequence.

We all saw it under Madejski. Wheres the money gone? He has to invest to succeed. He doesn't wamt to go up because it costs too much. He's selling our best players so he doesn't go up.

And under Dai. The people (still) happy with spending £7m on Aluko. Spunking £10m on Puscas and Joao immediately after coming out of an embargo. Ok with paying Moore a PL wage in the Championship. Just pay the extra £2m to get Oliviera

Constantly expecting 10 new signings.

I think you are referring to online nobheads though. Can't mix up their views with the majority of fans views.

[Snowflake Royal]

I am talking about from a fans point of view

So am I. There's constant fan pressure to spend more to compete and succeed regardless to cost or consequence.

We all saw it under Madejski. Wheres the money gone? He has to invest to succeed. He doesn't wamt to go up because it costs too much. He's selling our best players so he doesn't go up.

And under Dai. The people (still) happy with spending £7m on Aluko. Spunking £10m on Puscas and Joao immediately after coming out of an embargo. Ok with paying Moore a PL wage in the Championship. Just pay the extra £2m to get Oliviera

Constantly expecting 10 new signings.

I think you are referring to online nobheads though. Can't mix up their views with the majority of fans views.

I think that is the majority of fan views. Understanding of football finance and cost of success is miniscule.