Safe Standing Update

[Dirk Gently]

Just as an update on the Safe Standing campaign (which was last debated on this thread), th Lib Dems will be debating safe standing later today at their Conference in Bournemouth. If, as looks likely, they decide in favour of the concept, this will break the 3-party consensus and move the debate forward a long way.

More info and background at : http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7613442.stm

If fans want to stand, and clubs want to let them, we should at least explore safe ways of achieving it."

This is a sensitive issue but we cannot ignore the large numbers of fans who want to stand and are doing so in seating areas, despite the existing regulations and the danger it causes.

Given the seeming impossibility of policing existing regulations, and recognising that some passionate fans want to be able to jump up and down, then we need to look at technologies that allow them to do that safely.

EDIT : This motion was passed with a clear majority, and whilst everyone knows the Lib Dems will never get elected the fact that this has been passed puts it clearly onto the political agenda for the other parties and makes it harder for them to argue against it in future.

[Harry Carry]

Surely Lita would be against this?

[From Despair To Where?]

Really don't see how it puts it on the political agenda at all. The Liberal Democrats always position themselves away from Labour and the Conservatives on issues that really have no impact on the polital agenda in an effort to appear different. Rather than argue against it, the other parties will just ignore it because on a national scale, the football vote if such a sector of the electorate exists, is miniscule.

[Dirk Gently]

Because a lot of the politicos have for years been saying "it's not an issue - all three main parties agree on that."

Now they don't any more so there's a chink of light that can be exploited. Just another example of when you talk to anyone and give them reasoned arguments and the facts then the opposition to safe standing evaporates.

[readingbedding]

Colin Moynihan.

[From Despair To Where?]

So the third party makes a policy change on a very, very minor issue that will have absolutely no impact on an upcoming election. It will disappear quietly off the political agenda, if it can even be said to be on the political agenda in the first place and nobody will give a toss. The key is " if the club want to let them". It's not in any club in the tops 2 division's interests to provide a safe standing area in any new development and they sure as hell won't start ripping out seats because of a vocal minority of fans.

It's a small scale policy change by a party that has next to no chance of gaining power and very small chance of influencing government policy, not proof of opposition evaporating. Even if a coalition containing the Lib Dems is formed, it will not feature as a bargaining chip because it is an issue that affects very very few people.

The Safe Standing campaign seem to think evetyone wants this. From my experience, my view is very much in the majority - Given the choice would I prefder to stand at a game? Yes if it's the cheaper option. Do I really give a toss whether I stand or sit? No. Fai enough asking me my opinion on any issue because I will give you it. More pertinant is to ask me how Importnat I regard that issue to be.

[Dirk Gently]

So the third party makes a policy change on a very, very minor issue that will have absolutely no impact on an upcoming election. It will disappear quietly off the political agenda, if it can even be said to be on the political agenda in the first place and nobody will give a toss. The key is " if the club want to let them". It's not in any club in the tops 2 division's interests to provide a safe standing area in any new development and they sure as hell won't start ripping out seats because of a vocal minority of fans.

Ah, but it certainly is in their interests for a custom-designed area.

According to "The Green Guide" (the stadium safety "bible") you're allowed 9 people standing in an area designed for 10 people sitting - standing people move sideways so take more room up. Hence the argument for reducing allocations by 10% for clubs whose fans tend to stand.

But - and this is the key point - in the same size area that takes 10 seats, if it was specifically designed for standing you can get 18 people in legally - the nine you can get laterally but two rows of them. (Think of it as a row for the legs and a row for the bum!)

So there's a very real financial advantage in that by converting an area to safe-standing a club can increase the legal capacity of that area by 80%.

there's also less quantifiable advantages of removing the most significant area of conflict between supporters and stewards - saving on police and stewarding costs.

[Dirk Gently]

The Safe Standing campaign seem to think evetyone wants this. From my experience, my view is very much in the majority - Given the choice would I prefder to stand at a game? Yes if it's the cheaper option. Do I really give a toss whether I stand or sit? No.

Taking this other point, the figures consistently show majorities of 85-90% in favour of allowing supporters the choice to sit or stand as they prefer. (92% in a recent FFC survey). The same figures show about 40% would prefer to stand themselves.

You don't actually have to want to stand yourself to recognise the fact that giving people a proper choice and separating those who want to stand from those who don't want to (or can't) makes perfect sense for all.

[From Despair To Where?]

But if it impacts on competing at a European level or hosting major finals, it won't happen. If it costs more to install seats that can be converted to standing areas, the clubs will not do it.

Most people will equate standing to cheaper admission fees, as was the case pre Taylor Report, However, if it cost £20 to sit and £25 to stand, as I 'm sure most clubs would do in attempt to sell that "genuine traditional footballing experience" most fans would prefer to sit, Also it has to be remembered that gate receipts no longer constitute the major revenue stream for clubs as they did pre 1989.

[readingbedding]

I would guess that lots of fans would like to have the choice to sit or stand.

[Dirk Gently]

But if it impacts on competing at a European level or hosting major finals, it won't happen. If it costs more to install seats that can be converted to standing areas, the clubs will not do it.

Most people will equate standing to cheaper admission fees, as was the case pre Taylor Report, However, if it cost £20 to sit and £25 to stand, as I 'm sure most clubs would do in attempt to sell that "genuine traditional footballing experience" most fans would prefer to sit, Also it has to be remembered that gate receipts no longer constitute the major revenue stream for clubs as they did pre 1989.

There is no significant cost difference between standard seats and these "combi seats", at Werder Bremen.



Exactly this type was used at stadia hosting World Cup games in Germany.

[Baines]

But if it impacts on competing at a European level or hosting major finals, it won't happen. If it costs more to install seats that can be converted to standing areas, the clubs will not do it.

Most people will equate standing to cheaper admission fees, as was the case pre Taylor Report, However, if it cost £20 to sit and £25 to stand, as I 'm sure most clubs would do in attempt to sell that "genuine traditional footballing experience" most fans would prefer to sit, Also it has to be remembered that gate receipts no longer constitute the major revenue stream for clubs as they did pre 1989.

There is no significant cost difference between standard seats and these "combi seats", at Werder Bremen.



Exactly this type was used at stadia hosting World Cup games in Germany.

Dirk - does that combi-seat design have the people to space ratio benefit mentioned above? I'd guess not - but it would be interesting to know.

[Deathy]

I crave the day the madejski is like that. No more being told to sit down. Even if we just had the East stand like it.

Yes please!

[Dirk Gently]

Dirk - does that combi-seat design have the people to space ratio benefit mentioned above? I'd guess not - but it would be interesting to know.

Sorry - missed the question until now.

I'm not sure but I'll ask an expert.

By the looks of it I think it does have same as the UK green guide, with teh key difference that there are two (narrow) tiers in front of each seat, so with a standing crowd you can double the capacity which you'd have with a seated one.