Could England be better with worse players?

[rhroyal]

I know this sounds stupid. Better players will normally mean a better team. However it's been suggested multiple times that our "Golden Generation" chokes under pressure. I was watching the 3rd/4th match last night, and realised that both teams were way behind us in terms of individual quality if you look at domestic form. They've both done their counties proud, and neither has had too much pressure to deal with. There's been a certain fearlessness about both sides at times and there definitely haven't been any ego and team problems for them.

Tonight, Spain provide a counter argument with the most talented squad at the world cup looking favourites to win. I'd say that's come down to the recent winners mentality from 2008 calming the nerves a little, however it's been seen from Spain's history that countless talented squads have failed like England.

There seems to be no particular flow of youngsters ready to replace England's current squad in 2014. Hart, Walcott, Rodwell, Wilshere, Bostock? I'll be surprised if they're dominating the Premiership in 4 years time in the same way that Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Cole and Terry have been for a long time. I think it could help England. Lower the pressure from the media, allow the players just to enjoy 2014 a little more and give it a real go.

I was 2 in 1990 so I have no memory. From what I gather, Gazza was world class and showed it at the world cup. Lineker was a great finisher and Waddle had some great ability too. However as individuals I don't hear too much about their club form. Maybe being a little less talented than the current lot helped them.

[papereyes]

However it's been suggested multiple times that our "Golden Generation" chokes under pressure. I was watching the 3rd/4th match last night, and realised that both teams were way behind us in terms of individual quality if you look at domestic form.

I think that last bit might be a bit flawed. I don't think that that many of the German players are that far off the England ones. The main difference is that we're told that the England players and the English based players are great week in, week out.

For example, the German defenders are meant to be worse than the English ones. But are Freydrich and Mertesacker really that much worse than, say, Carragher and Upson? Certainly not on the evidence of my eyes from the last few weeks. Admittedly, these are Germans first choice defenders and England's reserve but they still played in at least a game each.

I also think that Germany have some players that will be regarded as amongst the best in the future but this is the first or second season they've been playing internationally. They were new to a vast chunk of Germans, let alone us. Also, Schweinsteiger switched positions this season and that made a massive difference to his performances.

I was 2 in 1990 so I have no memory. From what I gather, Gazza was world class and showed it at the world cup. Lineker was a great finisher and Waddle had some great ability too. However as individuals I don't hear too much about their club form. Maybe being a little less talented than the current lot helped them.

Butcher, Walker and Wright were three genuinely talented defenders yet you'll get very little recognition of that.
Lineker was a world class striker - very good record for Spurs but also went abroad and did OK and had two genuinely good World Cups.
Waddle was at his very best when in France so you tend not to hear about how skillful he was. In the England side, Barnes and himself were also forced to play far more defensively than they were comfortable with.

The 1990 team had some genuinely class players and some who had played abroad (and in Scotland). Importantly, I guess, it had nothing to lose.

One of the things that has bruised English football is that teams like Spurs or Villa can't have one or two such players and do OK. Also, the big teams now are not the big teams of the past.

[Ian Royal]

Of course we could be better with worse players. Providing those players combined properly to form a team.

[John Madejski's Wallet]

How come we're all saying we don't have that much quality coming through?

Germany parachuted a number of their U21 UEFA cup winners straight into the senior squad for this and they've done them proud
Seeing as we got to the final of that tourney, how come we didn't do similar?

Is it just that they're not famous, big-name prem players? If so, the press really need to change their mentality

[Franchise FC]

How come we're all saying we don't have that much quality coming through?

Germany parachuted a number of their U21 UEFA cup winners straight into the senior squad for this and they've done them proud
Seeing as we got to the final of that tourney, how come we didn't do similar?

Is it just that they're not famous, big-name prem players? If so, the press really need to change their mentality

If Cappello had done exactly that and they'd failed, I can see the headlines now, having left out some of the 'Golden Generation'.

International Football Management is easy with hindsight.

[Terminal Boardom]

Sadly, we are saddled in this country with a media that feeds us so much crap and hyperbole that expectation levels go through the roof. The only thing more disturbing is that normally sane people buy into the bullshit and actually believe all that they read, hear and see.

Things will not change while the Premier League hold the upper hand. The national team will always come a poor second even though one of the arguments for the creation of a "Super League" was to improve the standing of the national team. The talented youngsters will find that opportunity at the parent club is limited owing to the number of players on the books. There is no salary cap in the PL unlike the Bundesliga.

[Handsome Man]

We need to find a team as well as having superstar players. This doesn't seem as if it is going to happen with Terry in the side or with Lampard and Gerrard figting for space in Midfield. We have got good young players who made the same European final that provided four of the German side, and although not perfect players yet, the likes of Walcott and Johnson do need to be picked to improve.

The England team against Germany was Peter Shilton, Paul Parker, Stuart Pearce, Des Walker, Terry Butcher (Captain, sub Trevor Steven), Mark Wright, David Platt, Chris Waddle, Paul Gascoigne, Peter Beardsley, Gary Lineker

I do remember 1990 really well. A struggling team changed formation and dropped one of the superstars to find some cohesion. Barnes and Beardsley had played the finest league football ever for Liverpool in 1989, and there was only room for one in the team. Overall, the reason we made the final was that Waddle, Lineker and Gascoigne were in the best half-dozen attacking players in the world at the time, and look at the centre halves: Tony Adams was nowhere near good enough to make that side. During the summer of 1990, we really were a top footballing nation and probably the second best in the world. Our problems started then because for 20 years we have continued to believe this. We have had a couple of truly great players in Beckham and Cole, but we have yet to produce a team.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

I remember 1990 quite well, but i also know that time can cloud the memory.

As said above we had great players then, like we do now, who massively underperformed in major tournaments.

inside 90 mins we won only 1 game out of 7 in Italia 90. played superb in the semi, but massively rode out luck to get their.

In the 88 Euro we lost every game. In 92 we failed to win any. So over 3 tournaments from 88-92 we won 1 match out of 13! and we then went on to fail to qualify in 94. So from beating Paraguay in 86 to beating Scotland at Wembley in 96, our only win in major tournaments was 1-0 against Egypt! All with, on paper, a very talented squad.

In summary, different players, new era, same old problem.

[Ian Royal]

We need to find a team as well as having superstar players. This doesn't seem as if it is going to happen with Terry in the side or with Lampard and Gerrard figting for space in Midfield. We have got good young players who made the same European final that provided four of the German side, and although not perfect players yet, the likes of Walcott and Johnson do need to be picked to improve.

The England team against Germany was Peter Shilton, Paul Parker, Stuart Pearce, Des Walker, Terry Butcher (Captain, sub Trevor Steven), Mark Wright, David Platt, Chris Waddle, Paul Gascoigne, Peter Beardsley, Gary Lineker

I do remember 1990 really well. A struggling team changed formation and dropped one of the superstars to find some cohesion. Barnes and Beardsley had played the finest league football ever for Liverpool in 1989, and there was only room for one in the team. Overall, the reason we made the final was that Waddle, Lineker and Gascoigne were in the best half-dozen attacking players in the world at the time, and look at the centre halves: Tony Adams was nowhere near good enough to make that side. During the summer of 1990, we really were a top footballing nation and probably the second best in the world. Our problems started then because for 20 years we have continued to believe this. We have had a couple of truly great players in Beckham and Cole, but we have yet to produce a team.

Your point is somewhat weakened by thinking we made the final in '90. I was 9 and I know we lost in the semi.

[zummerset]

Ian you are only 29? I had though that someone with such fixed opinions, unwillingness to explore new ideas and general antagonistic personality must be at least in his early 70's.....

[Ian Royal]

Ian you are only 29? I had though that someone with such fixed opinions, unwillingness to explore new ideas and general antagonistic personality must be at least in his early 70's.....

People's impressions of me on here are very rarely reflective of reality. I'm actually polite, friendly and open minded. It's just too easy to feel contempt for faceless forum drones, which brings out the worst in me.

[Mr Angry]

As always, teams full of players willing to work hard for each other tend to be more succesful than teams where individuals think they are the be all and end all of everything. The Reading 106 team of 2005/06 were such a team - the whole being greater than the sum of its parts (and it could be argued, very few of those players who have left have achieved much since).

We, as football fans, generally have an obsession with the Premier League, an obsession stoked by and now constantly fed by the media (especially Sky). As a result, although deep down we know England aren't as good as we think (and are told) they are, we still somehow cling to the belief that actually, yes, we DO have World Class players.

No, we don't.

We REALLY don't.

We constantly get told we do, but we genuinely don't.

We have players who put in 100% for their club sides because they know that they will be able to generate massive financial benefits for themselves by so doing, and many of these players have a complacency about them where the possibility of NOT being chosen for England never crosses their minds; that complacency leads to contempt - contempt for the fans (nice comments after the Algeria game Wayne!), contempt for the badge, contempt for what playing for your country is supposed to be all about (Ashley Cole and Ledley King laughing as they got off the plane after losing to Germany).

I firmly believe that most of the England squad only see being an England player as a means to get more money from their sponsors, (Peter Crouch and Pringles anyone??? ) a bigger signing-on fee, a new, improved contract, a new WAG and more exposure in the Celebrity society that we have sadly become.

How brilliant would it be if an England manager were to call Lamps, Stevie G and the rest and say "thanks for everything guys, but you aren't in my plans" and then draft in a whole host of far less feted, younger players, to play as a team, to explain to the media that there is a long term plan that will inevitably mean defeats along the way but that the ultimate goal of being serious contenders at a major championships is worth the pain that we need to endure to get there.

But of course, it will never happen.

Sure, Cappello will dispense with some of the old guard before the Euro qualifiers (wow, King, Carragher and Heskey), but I can pretty well guarantee that Ashley Cole, Terry, Gerrard, Lampard, Barry and Rooney will all start the first qualifier (unless injured) in a 442 formation.

Wasn't it Einstein who said the definition of madness was doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome?

[Handsome Man]

We need to find a team as well as having superstar players. This doesn't seem as if it is going to happen with Terry in the side or with Lampard and Gerrard figting for space in Midfield. We have got good young players who made the same European final that provided four of the German side, and although not perfect players yet, the likes of Walcott and Johnson do need to be picked to improve.

The England team against Germany was Peter Shilton, Paul Parker, Stuart Pearce, Des Walker, Terry Butcher (Captain, sub Trevor Steven), Mark Wright, David Platt, Chris Waddle, Paul Gascoigne, Peter Beardsley, Gary Lineker

I do remember 1990 really well. A struggling team changed formation and dropped one of the superstars to find some cohesion. Barnes and Beardsley had played the finest league football ever for Liverpool in 1989, and there was only room for one in the team. Overall, the reason we made the final was that Waddle, Lineker and Gascoigne were in the best half-dozen attacking players in the world at the time, and look at the centre halves: Tony Adams was nowhere near good enough to make that side. During the summer of 1990, we really were a top footballing nation and probably the second best in the world. Our problems started then because for 20 years we have continued to believe this. We have had a couple of truly great players in Beckham and Cole, but we have yet to produce a team.

Your point is somewhat weakened by thinking we made the final in '90. I was 9 and I know we lost in the semi.

Wishful thinking

[Terminal Boardom]

IIRC, in 1986 things improved when Bryan Robson dislocated his shoulder for the 37th time and Ray Wilkins got sent off. Would we have performed better this time around had there been no Rooney? Who knows...

[papereyes]

1990 - injury to Robson as well, between group stage and final stages.

I do find the whole "they only won one game" thing a bit disingenous. Belgium and Holland were good, Germany better and they got caught in a whirlwind of rain and Irish elbows in the first game. Consider the teams played and its a very solid record, and shows, well, character in the final results.
Cameroon were Cameroon - they won, eventually.

[Hoop Blah]

I agree on paps view of 1990. We didn't set the world alight in every game and didn't win the hearts in the way Brazil did in 82 or Germany this time round but we did have a good tournament.

Spain haven't been as wonderful as many would make out, Italy were dour but effective in winning last time out and the French winning side got lucky during their run to the final. I think to expect perfection in a tournament is the definition of the over expectation that gets moaned about.

Mr A makes some very good points too, although I do think we have a handful of players more than capable of competing at the required level. As I've said on other threads I would love for a freshening up of the squad and for the issues at foot to really be addressed.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

1990 - injury to Robson as well, between group stage and final stages.

I do find the whole "they only won one game" thing a bit disingenous. Belgium and Holland were good, Germany better and they got caught in a whirlwind of rain and Irish elbows in the first game. Consider the teams played and its a very solid record, and shows, well, character in the final results.
Cameroon were Cameroon - they won, eventually.

You could take many views on 1990, but the stats dont lie. We had a 15 game run in major tournaments from 86 - 96 that reads L L L L D D W D D D L D D L D. P15 W1 D8 L6. Selective, yes, but thats dire. and a non qualifying WC campaign thrown in the middle.

& if my memory serves me right we had an excellent qualifying campaign for 1990 not conceeding a single goal?

[Hoop Blah]

Winning in extra time or on penalties does get you through though...and conversly knocks you out so those D's are a little misleading.

It's quite a negative way to look at it, especially when you consider that I doubt any World Cup winner in the last 3 or 4 tournaments have done so without going to extra time or penalties at some point.

I do agree that we tend to under perform and bottle it a bit a the tournaments, but I don't think we're alone in that and you can't expect us to out perform the rest of the world.

[Big Foot]

It's quite a negative way to look at it, especially when you consider that I doubt any World Cup winner in the last 3 or 4 tournaments have done so without going to extra time or penalties at some point

Brazil won all their games inside 90 minutes at 2002 World Cup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_FIFA_World_Cup

[rfcjoe]

Ian you are only 29? I had though that someone with such fixed opinions, unwillingness to explore new ideas and general antagonistic personality must be at least in his early 70's.....

People's impressions of me on here are very rarely reflective of reality. I'm actually polite, friendly and open minded. It's just too easy to feel contempt for faceless forum drones, which brings out the worst in me.

Not to mention, that when you go to football games, you sit with your back to the action, and then you make your obscured opinions known on the game.